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Rough Cost/issues Of Floater Vs Trailer

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by mickeykelley, Sep 23, 2018.

  1. Sep 24, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    I tried that with my wife....once....
     
  2. Sep 24, 2018
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
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    :lol:

    Getting back to the original question, I have never had a rear full float setup on a Jeep, but have read numerous accounts of hubs coming loose and other problems. Anyone with a full floater want to chime in?
     
  3. Sep 24, 2018
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    USA
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    Yes, The locking hubs have loosened a couple times for me. I used grade 5 bolts that I cut to length and used permanent high strength locktite with pinch style locknuts to try and solve it. I looked at my rim to see grease sprayed out of the hub/locking hub union area. 5 of the 6 grade 5 bolts sheared off in the hub. I had to buy a new hub and replaced the bolts with real hardened studs that have an oversize shoulder that barely fits through the locking hub. It actually needed to be tapped onto them. I hope this fixes the issue... Posimoto has had similar problems. I like the idea of what I have and enjoyed making the parts, but to do again, I would rather go offset flanged or D20/300 and centered d44.
     
  4. Sep 24, 2018
    cayenne

    cayenne Member

    central Texas
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    I use Stage 8 locking bolts (I don't know if this is the right part number: Stage 8® 8901 - Warn Manual Hub Locking Bolt Kit).
    I haven't had an issue with them coming loose. However, I do have an odd clicking/creaking noise under load sometimes.
     
    Keys5a likes this.
  5. Sep 24, 2018
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Hermosa, SD
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    I installed an aftermarket produced FF kit from 4 Wheel Parts Wholesalers in 1988 or 1989.
    It's no longer in production..
    I never had any of the problems others have mentioned regarding loose/broken hub bolts.
    I used what I believe were stock factory hub bolts.
    Yes, I always checked them before/after a Jeep trip.
    If I was going into rough boulder terrain, I would install the drive flanges in place of the locking hubs once destination was reached.
    Stronger (in my opinion) and less to stick out and get whacked.
    I always carried the drive flanges with me just in case of locking hub problem.

    The advantages are obviously flat towing the Jeep, and getting home or back to camp with a broken axle.
    Jeeps do not make good tri-pods.....I have had to change out a rear tapered axle in the boonies; it's no fun even if you are prepared for that.

    Maintenance wise, it's just like re-packing the front wheel bearings on your Jeep.

    With all that being said, I know have an offset D44 flanged rear axle in my Jeep.

    For towing, I leave the transmission in gear and put the transfer case into neutral.
     
  6. Sep 24, 2018
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Don't get me wrong I like trailers also...............But I Flat towed this one all over the West for many years Deer & Elk hunting.......Colorado , Utah, Wyoming, Nevada, Idaho............no issues with transmissions......and for brakes build this Surge brake tow bar........70 mph and don't even know its back there when stopping. Should have patented it!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Sep 24, 2018
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Liberty Lake, WA
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    I used to flat tow my racer 2 1/2 hours each way to/from the race, twice a year. My tow rig was a 7200# IH dually dump truck that I thought was heavy/strong enough to handle anything flat towing a little jeep could throw at it. I really couldn't even tell the jeep was back there.

    I had one experience that totally made me re-evaluate the sanity of flat towing. It was raining on my way home from a race, and I took a long sweeping turn a little faster than I should have. I tapped the brakes mid-turn, and that jeep pushed me sideways enough to break traction of the truck's rear tires. Luckily I was able to steer and power out of the slide before I ran out of real estate.

    That really opened my eyes. I've flat towed since, but that episode gave me a real lasting respect for it. While slowing into a turn, you have the weight of a whole vehicle pushing you sideways without the added benefit of any tongue weight to aid in traction. Even if straight-line panic stops feel fine, an evasive maneuver could be tragic.
     
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  8. Sep 24, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    how did you 'plumb' the brake into the jeep brake system - or did you have it set up more like a 'brake buddy' where it activated/pushed on the brake pedal?
     
  9. Sep 24, 2018
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Reprinted from Steves Brake Buddy post:

    .the brake line from the surge master cylinder on the tow bar first goes through a special valve by MICO designed for vehicles like a drivable rubber-tired crane or excavator that has the ability to use the brake system from two different locations within the same vehicle......once through the special valve it connects to the rear brakes only on the jeep and allows the jeep once disconnected to be driven with no issue as long as the tow bar / brake line remains attached..............likewise if the hitch was to ever fail a standard breakaway cable attached to the towing vehicle is part of the surge hitch and would activate the rear brakes........Currently there are now quick-release high pressure air-tight hydraulic couplings that would allow for removal of the towbar anytime without having to bleed the brakes again.
     
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  10. Sep 24, 2018
    wasillashack

    wasillashack Member

    Wasilla, Alaska
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    Lot's of good ideas here, I had a FF in my CJ6, loved it, Summers Bros. axles, machined spindles modded Warn locking hubs. Total cost with trading and machining my own parts $200. Your choice will be determined by, budget, scrounge ability, comfort level with flat towing or trailering, personal abilities and available equipment.
    The hub mod was drilling and tapping a 3/8" UNF (IIRC) hole in the selector knob of the hub to prevent it from moving.
    One item I have not seen mentioned in towing is the towed vehicle (trailer or tow bar) needs to be level or slightly downhill toward the tow vehicle. This is crucial if the towed vehicle doesn't have brakes. If the tow bar is uphill toward the tow vehicle, in hard braking situations, the towed vehicle will tend push the rear end of the tow vehicle upward unloading the rear tires, allowing the brakes to lock up resulting in a "significant emotional event". This happened to me before the advent of a variety ball mounts that have adjustable height.
     
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  11. Sep 24, 2018
    mickeykelley

    mickeykelley Well-Known Member

    Republic of Texas
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    Yes and I have tried it with Tubby too. Very frustrating and sometimes many stabs. Bottom line, avoid backing up situations at all cost. Learned that yeas ago pulling a small trailer with short neck. Don't plan on trailering the wagon. It won't be for going longer distances than it could drive under its own powered and it will have an OD added to it. The CJ is a different animal as its a 45, maybe 50 MPH vehicle and not something I'm inclined to drive 4-6 hours to get some place at that speed,
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  12. Sep 24, 2018
    mickeykelley

    mickeykelley Well-Known Member

    Republic of Texas
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    My tow vehicle will always be either a 1500 Avalanche 4x4 (currently) or equivalent Suburban. I carrry 3 round bales of hay with the current 16 ' trailer without brakes regularly and it is not something you emergency brake and expect anything to happen quickly. At 1,100-1,200 per bale plus trailer, that a fair amount weight, which is why you see me driving slow, not traffic time and short distances. You drive extremely defensive, but caca pasa. Obviously the towing vehicle has to be up to the task with or without trailer. My point is if you trailer with regularity, you should know to take it easy, don't drive fast, don't take turns fast, etc, etc, BUT CACA PASA. Having experience with the current 16' trailer tells me that if I plan to do this regularly, I want to get a trailer with brakes. That one part of the economic decision, but there are other considerations.
     
  13. Sep 24, 2018
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

    Apopka, Fl
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    Yes, trailer brakes are a must.
     
  14. Oct 5, 2018
    wasillashack

    wasillashack Member

    Wasilla, Alaska
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    Another point to be aware of is some states have a maximum speed limit for trailers with more than one axle. In California I believe it is 55 MPH. Good luck!
     
  15. Oct 6, 2018
    Rick Whitson

    Rick Whitson Detroit Area 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I bought a Master Tow, two dolly from a friend, it works well for me. I disconnect the rear drive shaft and put a ratchet strap around the frame to hold it up out of the way after duct taping the bearing caps. I pull my Jeep 250 miles from my cabin to home in the Summer for Jeepfest in Toledo, and to have it home so of the time. I have a 2018 Ford F 150 Supercrew which weighs about twice what the Jeep does, the Jeep taxes the brakes, but not too bad. I drive slower and leave plenty of room between the car in front of me. Big Rigs in Michigan go 65mph, so I just stay with them.
     
  16. Oct 7, 2018
    Chris Insull

    Chris Insull All roads lead me back to the beach... 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I’ve been flat towing mine since the early ‘80’s with no issues. Thousands of miles... And only flat towed with a 3/4 ton or greater truck. Only used a trailer once and that was behind a Ryder moving truck during my Navy transfer to San Diego from Wa. If space/ storage is no concern, get the trailer. There are many other uses, also...
    Cost? Well IMO, everything is relative, so pay for what you NEED to make it work in your current situation and grow it from there.
    That said I’m currently looking for a trailer that would handle both the CJ and Bantam T3C along with my MC.
     
  17. Oct 7, 2018
    supertrooper

    supertrooper Member

    moreno valley, ca
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    I was under the impression that puting the transmission in gear and transfercase in neutral is perfectly safe for flat towing without having to pull the drive shafts off. I did a full float conversion on my jeep but it was mainly to be able to use 30 spline lockers and to get rid of the tapered axles/hubs. And i run drive flanges so i dont know how selectable hubs hold up on the rear but i haven't had any problems with the drive flange bolts loosening up like others have.

    I think i spent a little less than $700 in parts for the conversion. Besides having to have to store a trailer somewhere when not using it i think of it just being another thing that i would need to spend time and money maintaining.
     
  18. Oct 7, 2018
    mickeykelley

    mickeykelley Well-Known Member

    Republic of Texas
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    Can you explain to my what the significance of 'getting' 30 spline and why 'get rid of' tapered axels. I'm still trying to learn. I have learned to pain the tapered and using the hub puller, but then I don't expect to be pulling the hub with any regularity. Maybe I'm wrong.
     
  19. Oct 7, 2018
    Danefraz

    Danefraz Well-Known Member 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Chico CA
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    From other posts I've read in the last 6 years; here's my layman's digested understanding: one reason to go with the floating axle is that it's able to keep supporting the rig if an axle breaks, allowing you to limp to a good spot to fix it.

    Spline counts are another thing. The 30-spline axles are by design stronger at the splines as I have read (basically more surface area in contact as power is applied, at least that's the basic principle). I don't know if splines matters much if you're smart with application of the skinny pedal and have reasonable tire size. Stuff does happen, but I believe it requires matching guts at the carrier to accept 30-spline as well (you can't stuff a 10-spline axle into a 30-spline receptacle).

    Our tapered axles and the flanged axles usually require fixing when they break, aka disabled at the spot, sometimes the axle comes out with the wheel attached and that's that. If you use selectable hubs on the floating axle, you can just put them to free, put the rig in 4wd, use the front axle as your power, and limp to where you need to go for repair without generally worrying about a wheel falling off.

    Having four-wheel selectable hubs is also cool, like having four shift levers (I have four levers: the trans, a twin sticked transfer, and the over-drive - 5 levers would be awesome, if you had a PTO). Drive flanges or selectable hubs, it's all gravy if you have the free floated axle imo.

    The tapered axles found on the early rigs (pre-71ish I think) require a puller to get the hub and axle loose (paraphrased here). Some trickery and a BFH often are used to get the tapered axles loose, and if you're not careful, you ruin the brake drum in the process. Floating and flanged axles do not have the same issue, you just unbolt stuff and do your thing, no puller required.

    I have a tapered axle with 10in brakes from my '69 in the stack of parts in the back yard that was original to my jeep that I've swapped for a flanged axle and 11in brakes. If I were to run across the parts to free float things, I'd rat hole those parts for that project later down the road.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2018
  20. Oct 7, 2018
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

    Apopka, Fl
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    As mentioned the main benefit is the strength difference. As a lot of people have noted the chance of your axle shafts ever breaking is mighty slim. I would never say impossible, just improbable. That is of course only my opinion.
     
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