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Sm465/and V8 Clutch Won't Disengage

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by DrDanteIII, Apr 29, 2018.

  1. May 15, 2018
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

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    When I did the np in mine the bearing retainer was pushing the hub on the disk I shaveda little off. Just something to check. I pulled that thing a dozen times.
     
    Walt Couch and 47v6 like this.
  2. Jun 25, 2018
    DrDanteIII

    DrDanteIII Master Procrastinator

    Milford NJ 08848
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    Update: Still not disengaging.

    Pulled the trans, switched out the clutch, pressure plate, and throw-out bearing. Made a new cable bracket. Bolted it all back together, still no dice. I can watch the throw-out push the diaphragm in a decent amount, but it still doesn't seem to let go. I know it CAN disengage, because I disengaged it with a pry-bar during installation to get everything lined up.

    So now I'm thinking its an issue of throw on the pedal and arm. I'm using 1970 through-the-floor brake and clutch pedals and a corresponding cable. It had plenty of throw for the old T-15, but maybe its not enough for this setup. I have the additional problem of the clutch arm hitting the master cylinder bracket at the bottom of the pedal travel. So maybe I'm not getting quite enough reach to let it loose.

    What concerns me is that there is already a decent amount of tension on the cable, and the throw-out bearing is riding on the diaphragm at all times. It even has some pressure on it when the clutch is released.

    I'm going to continue to play with adjusting and clearancing the clutch arm for now.

    Any suggestions?

    p.s.: I should have bought that trans jack 2 years ago. So much easier, and I don't have to pull the t-case.
     
  3. Jun 25, 2018
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Argh. Sorry, no words of wisdom. Just commiserating.

    Possibly the geometry of the release arm has changed, and it requires more travel than the T-15 clutch did? Using your pry bar, you can measure what travel you need to release. Maybe you have the wrong pivot for the release arm? I think you must be way off somehow, because most applications have a lot of extra pedal travel, needed for long intervals between clutch adjustments.

    Having the throw-out bearing in constant contact with the cover fingers is bad. The bearing will wear out from spinning all the time.
     
  4. Jun 25, 2018
    DrDanteIII

    DrDanteIII Master Procrastinator

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    I appreciate the input

    I've already moved the position where the cable mounts to the pedal away from the pivot point to get more pull. I've also drilled a hold closer to the pivot on the throw-out arm to do the same. These have definitely increased the throw with a commensurate increase in the force needed at the pedal. Its a pretty stout pull at this point.

    The pivot point of the throw-out arm is cast into the bell housing and there is no way to adjust it. Its a t4/t5 bell from a later cj Adapting AMC I6 & V8 Engines to the SM465 Transmission The arm and pivot is native to the bell.

    I can try to measure the throw with the pry bar but its not going to be too accurate given the challenges with all the bracketry, exhaust, and frame in the way.

    As far as the throw-out bearing riding on the fingers. I know its bad. I'm running the novak adjustable one, and its at its shortest setting. I compared it to the native T4/t5 throw-out bearing, and its as short, if not just a tad shorter. I've tried the pressure plate for both the original t15 and the t4/5. they seem to be identical in overall height.
     
  5. Jun 25, 2018
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Did you check that there is nothing keeping the friction disk pressed hard against the flywheel? If the splines on the input shaft are not cut far enough back, it will push that fiction disk hub onto the flywheel and nothing will then allow it to spin free no matter what arm, T/O bearing, pivot ball or whatever.. It would act like the disk is rusted solid to the flywheel.

    I had this problem, seems like others have too. You only need like 1/16 of an inch clearance to allow the clutch to disengage from the flywheel. I attribute the issues I had putting in my sm420 to the thicker dauntless flywheel. It makes the friction disk hub ride back further on the input shaft. My sm420 ran out of splines at that area. locked my friction disk tight to the flywheel.

    When you pull the bell housing back a bit while still bolted onto the engine, can you get the clutch to disengage? Forget about your linkage for a bit. I took a ratchet strap and pulled that release arm back all the way. Still didnt disengage. Isolate one thing, then move onto the next.
     
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  6. Jun 25, 2018
    DrDanteIII

    DrDanteIII Master Procrastinator

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    I know you had mentioned that earlier, and I forgot about it. That's a good point. When I released it with the pry bar, it wasn't all bolted up. I think that will be my next avenue of attack.
    Thanks.
     
  7. Jun 25, 2018
    DrDanteIII

    DrDanteIII Master Procrastinator

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    do you think hitting it with the grinder will work, or should I find someone with a mill to do it right? Since I have 2 of everything, I can try that with the disk I just took out.
     
  8. Jun 25, 2018
    47v6

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    I cut mine on my lathe. It was a last resort option and didnt know if it work at all. I bet you could do it with a dremal tool. I was literally at wits end. Get creative. You can't really make it work worse.
     
  9. Jun 25, 2018
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

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    Check the bearing retainer too mine hit the disk enough to stop it from disengagement
     
  10. Jun 25, 2018
    Oldriginal86

    Oldriginal86 Member

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    This is why the crankshaft end play should be checked with nothing attached to the front or back of the engine. Write that in your notes. With the trans installed, recheck it again. If no end play is present, it’s more then likely input shaft binding in the pilot bushing. Could be as mentioned above, the sleeve that the throw out bearing rides is too long.
     
  11. Jun 26, 2018
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

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    Maybe I missed it, but does this have a GM or AMC engine. If the latter, the length of the adapter could be part of the problem.
     
  12. Jun 26, 2018
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

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    Amc I think.
     
  13. Jun 27, 2018
    DrDanteIII

    DrDanteIII Master Procrastinator

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    its an AMC 304. There really isn't an adapter per se. Its a new front bearing retainer on the original GM input shaft and a T5 bellhousing machined out to fit that bearing retainer.

    I bought the full bell housing kit here...
    Adapting AMC I6 & V8 Engines to the SM465 Transmission
     
  14. Apr 7, 2019
    DrDanteIII

    DrDanteIII Master Procrastinator

    Milford NJ 08848
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    How much clearance should there be between the hub on the pressure plate and the snout of the bearing retainer? I installed the trans and the clutch disc but without the pressure plate.
    On mine there's barely enough clearance to get a piece of paper in between. I'll post a photo later, but I'm having a hard time uploading it now. But I did confirm that it spins freely without the pressure plate installed.

    I also noticed when I took the pressure plate off the diaphragm Springs relaxed significantly.

    I'm starting to get pretty frustrated with this swap
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  15. Apr 7, 2019
    3b a runnin

    3b a runnin Active Member 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    When I put the 465 behind my AMC 360, per Novak instructions, I cut the bearing retainer sleeve off at the 1st stepdown. Probably cut off 1 1/2" or more. The adapter kit from Novak, had a retainer adapter that extended past the original. Clutch works fine. Here is the retainer setup that I used. Adapting AMC I6 & V8 Engines to the SM465 Transmission
     
  16. Apr 8, 2019
    DrDanteIII

    DrDanteIII Master Procrastinator

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    picture
    [​IMG]
     
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