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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. Jun 25, 2020
    Lockman

    Lockman OK.....Now I Get It . 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Silver Hill,...
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    I'm sorry ,Man. I'm 99% sure it's still from the valve covers though. Did you ever try the Felpro double thick # 1600 cork gaskets. I had 'Niagara Falls' untill I used them, Installed like I posted in the earlier part of this thread. No leaks now .
     
  2. Jun 25, 2020
    Oldriginal86

    Oldriginal86 Member

    Pasadena, Md.
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    My next step would be to check the crank case for excessive pressure while driving. My brother had a Chevy II that would blow out 2qts of oil going 15 miles to work. 4” of h2o crank case pressure. You could seal everything with gallons of RTV and still have leaks if the pressure is too high.
     
  3. Jun 25, 2020
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    Oldriginal86 has a point. Have you checked the draft tube to determine if it is plugged?
     
  4. Jun 25, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Good point, but I don't know how to determine the crankcase pressure....all I know is the draft tube is clear and open.
     
  5. Jun 25, 2020
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    With the draft tube is clear and open and based on the size of the tube, I doubt you could build any crankcase pressure.
     
  6. Jun 25, 2020
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
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    I agree.
     
  7. Jun 25, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    yup...its like a small exhaust pipe...it definitely puffs out enough air that you can easily feel it with your hand....In some ways, I find it surprising that it puffs out as much air as it does sitting at idle. Previously that led to the discussion about blowby etc....
     
  8. Jun 26, 2020
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    Sadly James, with the constant issues with leaks and such, it probably time to consider pulling the engine and freshen it up. With the existing running gear, I would be somewhat apprehensive to go to a larger cubic inch engine and actually, the 283 is a good engine. If you continue to consider possibly upgrading to an automatic then of course you have several engines to choose from.
     
  9. Jun 26, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    I kind of agree. So far, I like the 283...plenty of power for what the wagon is. I am trying figure out how much of a refreshing it needs...what that all would entail? I'd like to do more of it myself than I did with the cj5. It also leads to questions like is it worth putting later heads on it, and other project scope and creep thoughts like modifying the firewall in a better way, auto trans, and maybe just a crate engine. Honestly, knowing myself, my appetite for smaller vs bigger projects (i.e. getting it back on road 'sooner' rather than 'later') and my budget, thinking keeping the 283, investigate later heads, clean up the firewall, keep the t90 and D18 with basic rebuild, and figure out the clutch (maybe with a v6 cj style cable), and an OD when the budget allows. I think that is plenty of work but still in my wheelhouse with the new challenge of engine work, and should be a bit easier on the budget.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
    Muzikp likes this.
  10. Jun 26, 2020
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    In my mind, keeping the 283 will involve pulling the engine and sending it into a shop for rebuilding. You could possibly send just the block into the shop for rebuild and locate a set of newer heads (283, 327 or even 307 cu. in.) Also, new heads could possibly simplify accessory mounting. Another possible route would be to search for a running 307 which would be a drop in and shouldn't over power your existing drive train. Either route would allow you time and access to address the firewall repairs you want to do.
     
    bigbendhiker likes this.
  11. Jun 27, 2020
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    The 307 makes a great Jeep engine but so would a 305 and with it you get all the late model mounting points and factory EFI if you want to go that route. I think most of those early heads are 65 cc chambers and you would need to find the same cc's for replacements if you want to maintain your CR in the 283. I have both a 307 and a 305 sitting here. I think the 305 (87 carbed) would run as is but you would need to check the compression and oil pressure to make sure. Or there is a fully rebuilt 1962 327 and two 350's with machine work done but still in pieces. You need to move------
     
    FinoCJ likes this.
  12. Jun 28, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    From my little bit of research, I think they are even smaller - like 58cc. I am trying to research heads - it looks like 305 heads are small enough volume they can be used and still keep the compression up (even if the engine is bored 30 or 60 over). I have a lot to learn - there are references to 420 and 520 heads, power pak heads, camel hump and double hump etc....I think the classic 462 heads are too big volume (common for the 350). I guess in theory, what I would be looking for is the heads used in the mid-60s 283s...these would be the small volume, but would have the accessory mounting (and maybe the slightly larger valves?) I am still in the research phase, and the internet is sometimes the worst place to do it...but there are not a lot of other options these days. According to this text (Small-Block Chevrolet: Stock and High-Performance Rebuilds), in 1962, the intake valve diameter was increased from 1.72 inches to 1.94 inches in some high-output 283s and 327s. But I don't know when the accessory mounting holes were added? EDIT: looks like later 283 heads would have larger valves, but no accessory mount holes - that came along in 1969 and for the 350.Seems like with all the aftermarket support for sbc's, someone would be reproducing these older, smaller heads today with accessory holes?

    Maybe I am way off, but I don't think this engine has been driven much since it was swapped into the wagon 20+ years ago....its just mostly sat. If so, would it be unreasonable to think that a refreshing could be a home done job of disassembly, cleaning, honing cylinders, and reassembly with new bearings and rings, freeze and oil galley plugs, gaskets and seals etc? If head work is needed - like hardened valve seats - that could get farmed out. I guess there is no way to know the condition of the engine without disassembly, and maybe it needs a full rebuild...I would then guess another concern would be how much its already been bored over, and how much more you could go if needed?

    I need to get some cost estimates as well....but if we are talking a full rebuild of the 283 with full machine work, boring out the cylinders, valve head job, machining crank etc...then maybe I really am getting into the territory of replacing with a crate or later sbc etc....

    I have lots of unknowns - as in there is lots of stuff I don't know that I don't know yet....but for now, my last question would be in regard to the mounting...with the current 57 block, the front mounting is the only option. Is that really an issue? Is there a significant benefit to the mounting on the side of the blocks? Mostly, if the engine could be moved forward a few inches to create more firewall room that could be very helpful....the new electric fan allows for a more forward positioning of the engine....of course, a trade-off would be having to move the transmission/TC and cross-member etc (and maybe new driveshafts)....in other words, is it worth moving the engine forward (which basically means a different engine) given all that comes with that....

    Starts to sound like its all or nothing - either try to keep this very budget oriented with a minimal refresh if possible, or go all out and get a crate/later TBI engine and add in the automatic transmission etc....I don't think my budget will allow for the all out plan....My budget is currently crushed - my wife suggested I just park it for most of the next year (could still use it for some dinking around town), but hopes for some fall trips are probably out the window.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  13. Jun 28, 2020
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    A tbi 4.3 would move that better than your tired small block. Probably cost less, find a whole vehicle and rob everything.
     
  14. Jun 28, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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  15. Jun 29, 2020
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    If going aftermarket, you may as well buy a set that are fully loaded and bolt them on. By the time you go through the valves and springs, the price is usually a toss up and you get all new parts. And I've really grown fond of aluminum heads. You loose about 60 lbs and more importantly, they dissipate heat much better than iron. I also think the 194/160 heads would work just fine on the 283.

    Meandering thoughts. The front engine mounts work fine but that plate can get in the way if mounting accessories and even some mechanical fuel pumps. Those front mounting holes are also used by aftermarket for mounting all sorts of stuff. If you move the engine forward, you will obviously be changing driveshaft lengths. And in no way would I ever regress to a 4.3 in something already set up for a V8. Last, I do suspect that you could buy a crate engine for less than a complete rebuild on the 283. But first, if you haven't yet, figure out what you have. A compression check!!!! I haven't checked for 283 rebuild kits for awhile but suspect they are somewhat more expensive than an equivalent 350 kit and probably a whole lot less options.
     
    45es likes this.
  16. Jun 29, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Some more info....Digging through my digital photo file (not at home, so can't look at the real thing - but it also gives me some time for research and thinking)....The current 283 appears to have the original, standard 283 heads with the rectangular block casting shape (no pics of casting number in my digital files but that should coincide with 3836842)....Based on the production date casting (B286) - that would be Feb 28 1956 - about right for a first year 1957 283 production. Some info:
    Casting 3836842 was used on 283ci V8 engines from 1957-1967. These low compression heads came with 1.72-inch intake and 1.5-inch exhaust valves and a 59cc combustion chamber. The intake runner volume measured 137cc.


    Good point - that was kind of what I was thinking, but hadn't paid much attention to those details yet. But now that I see that price, I may get priced out (whether buying assembled or bare and adding in springs/valve etc). Looks like its going to be around $1000 for a set of bolt on, ready to go heads.....Have to see how that compares to machine shop costs for redoing the existing stock heads. Might not be worth the cost of new heads.....I get that its hard to justify much money spent on 'upgrading' this engine when better and cheaper options can be bought in a crate engine.

    These trick flow aluminium heads would be about right - fully assembled as well....not sure about the 'ductile iron' valve seats - shouldn't those be hardened for todays pump gas etc?
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-30310001

    Will do when I get home...its going to be another week at least. A compression and leak down test is fine, but what else? Basically, to truly know what I got, its going to have to come out, and at least pull the heads to see what it looks like?






     
  17. Jun 29, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I've always judged an engine be oil pressure, compression and spark plugs cleanliness. If all are good, chances are the engine is healthy.
     
  18. Jun 29, 2020
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    Yep. If it passes those, everything can be addressed in-place.
     
  19. Jun 30, 2020
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

    Apopka, Fl
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    Just throwing out my thoughts here. I'd bet that the most likely scenario is the 283 has never had anything done to it since it was new. Probably a runner that came out of a wrecked car in a junkyard. Swapped into the wagon, turned out to not be in that great of shape after all which could account for the reason it sat and wasn't driven much.

    If you can feel anything coming out of the draft tube at idle I'd certainly be concerned about the engine being pretty tired. To me it doesn't seem like doing just the heads would accomplish much, if anything.
     
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  20. Jun 30, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    no not thinking changing the heads will be the magic solution, but rather if it goes through a complete rebuild, would it be worth replacing the heads as opposed to rebuilding the existing ones...just doing some cost-benefit estimates. Also looking at/pricing out completely new engine options instead of a rebuilding the 283.....and also considering the other end of the spectrum such as just replacing rings, honing the cylinders and all new gaskets....all options are on the table and researching them is essentially free, so it's probably the best thing for me to do right now
     
    Glenn likes this.
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