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Norcal69's Common Sense Build.

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by Norcal69, Sep 11, 2014.

  1. Feb 16, 2019
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

    exploring the...
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    that's better than the spec I think. very few old rigs are that square.
     
  2. Feb 16, 2019
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Liberty Lake, WA
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    I'll bet that's better than the eyes and the center holes in the leaf springs themselves!
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2019
  3. Feb 16, 2019
    Bowbender

    Bowbender I'm workin' on it!

    Northern Minn.
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    There aren't even 1/64" marks on the tape, that's pretty precise! Well done! (y)
     
  4. Feb 17, 2019
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    That's where I cam up with the 64'th. One plumb bob drops on the front edge of the line, the other drops on the back side of the line.....
     
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  5. Feb 17, 2019
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Rear axle is in. I put 15 gallons of fuel in jugs in the back. I'm 10 gal short to simulate the weight of the underseat tank. I also don't have the weight of the skid plate/tank. Currently the shackles point about 5 degrees to the rear. When I step on the hitch (220) Lbs the shackle angle goes to about 25-30 degrees. If I were loaded up for the weekend I could easily have 300lbs in the back between between the bed of the jeep and hitch carrier.
    Shackles are 3.5" on center. If I were to move the shackle hanger forward from 44-1/4" to maybe 44 or 43-7/8" I would get more shackle angle and more droop..... ride height would be lower. That could be remedied with longer shackles to regain lost ride height. That would also add more droop, but according to the picture below more shackle angle would increase the spring rate. Maybe I should leave them alone as the current arrangement is the best compromise between off road ability, load carrying, ride comfort and freeway drive ability. What do you guys think?

    [​IMG]

    A few pics. The shackles are not complete yet. They will have a piece of tubing welded in between them.

    [​IMG]

    Shackles point towards the rear just a little bit. This is with 15 gal of fuel sitting in the back in jugs. No skid plate, gas tank or underseat tank full of 10 gals......

    [​IMG]

    This is as high as my jack goes before the wood block flys out....... I could probably go twice as high before the drivers side shackle reaches full droop. Keep in mind that the front springs are not installed yet.

    [​IMG]

    Shackle angles that match the picture above. The drivers side shackle is about half way to full droop location. Passenger side looks to be about half way to full stuff angle as the spring is not completely flat yet.

    [​IMG]

    What do you guys think? The spring hangers are set to YJ spec. Springs of course are YJ. My jeep weights a little less than a YJ, But when loaded weighs more than an empty YJ.
     
  6. Feb 17, 2019
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Sorry that Diagram I posted is a little confusing.........you'll want 15 -20 degrees of angle leaning back from the fixed end at the rear axle to start and just the opposite at the front axle when the front has forward facing shackles........anything approaching 25-45 degrees after the springs are trail worn is just fine.........you'll like the ride...............all of the movement away from the fixed end softens the spring rate...........opposite direction from 90 degrees increases the rate as the spring has to try to shorten itself when loaded......and will normally invert the shackle if the tire hits a solid object when in that position.
     
  7. Feb 18, 2019
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Yes, I was actually thinking that the diagram might be backwards or just referring to the spring rate as it travels through its full range of motion; full droop to full compression.
    I am thinking that once the front is done I will move the rear shackle forward. I am guessing that 1/4" is going to be about right but I will see when I get there. Here is my current angle. Using the ruler to create the datum line I get 86 degrees with my protractor. It is hard to see in the pic.
    I was thinking that about 10-15 degrees of rearward angle (80-75 degrees on the protractor) would put me into the ball park with new springs. It is pretty common to have a couple hundred lbs on the hitch carrier/ in the bed. These springs are pretty soft to begin with. If I put the hitch carrier on and stand on it (220lbs) I get into the 25-30 degree range (60-65 degrees on the protractor) pretty easily. Once the springs are broke in I imagine that with added weight we will be into the 45 degree range.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Feb 18, 2019
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Make sure you tack those shackle ends in place. I had to move mine when they flipped outward and locked into place.
     
  9. Feb 18, 2019
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I think I remember you going through that. They have a tack on the front and rear right now.
     
  10. Feb 18, 2019
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

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    Kyle, Pick that angle up on the vertical leg of the rear of the shackle.......much easier to call out 10 or 20 degrees from there...........and those are not magic numbers........just a range you want to stay in.

    And I love your work.......so don't take this the wrong way.................but what size is the shackle material that you're using?..........from here looks to be maybe 1/4"x 2"?

    Since your making those shackles a little longer & Even with a bar welded between the plates the bolt hole ends can take a big sideways twisting load when the suspension articulates.........which I think will tweak those and elongate the holes eventually......I pretty much only use 3/8" material now , and I like the thought process on these aftermarket shackles that I have copied at least the threading portion of the shackle maternal on one side and using a castle head nut & cotter pin that can be used to adjust and pre-load the bolt / bushing just enough to cut down on the side hill lean that is inherent with longer shackles and bushings that have a little wear.......also allows for further adjustment to keep those loose to firm but not sloppy..........Grease is also your friend.......and I have also made a few of those bolts longer for the YJ springs in 4340 which is expensive but well worth having the grease-able bolt in that environment.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  11. Feb 18, 2019
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Tarry, Thank you for the help. I will shoot for somewhere in the 10-20 degree range. No offense taken at all. The shackle material that I am using right now is 1/4"x2". These shackles are just for mock up purposes, I literally sheared off (4) 5" length, stacked the two pieces together and punched a pair of holes 3.5" on center with the iron worker. The shackles that I made for my old springs were 3/8"x2" flat bar. I have greaseable bolts that will be installed when I get everything dialed in. The shackles will be remade out of 3/8" bar stock like these old shackles seen below.

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Feb 22, 2019
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I had to take a few evenings off for some shop cleanup. Last night I got all of the old brackets cleaned off the frame. Front bumper and winch removed as well.
    After extensive measuring I decided that the new main eye brackets needed to be moved 3" on center toward the rear. From there I squared the front main eyes with the rear main eyes and the front to rear chassis line. Yup, its perfect.

    A clean slate....
    [​IMG]


    Yes I'm a Square..... There I said it :rofl:

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Feb 22, 2019
    txtoller

    txtoller Member 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Following with interest!
     
  14. Feb 22, 2019
    jeep peep69

    jeep peep69 Member

    redding ca.
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    Looking good. How long did it take to polish the floor so the tape would stick....
     
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  15. Feb 22, 2019
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    about 5 years..... one butt scoot at a time......
     
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  16. Feb 25, 2019
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I've been doing some reading about shackle hanger placement. Probably too much reading.......
    The following information was lifted from Pirate 4x4. I generally try to avoid that forum, but there are some professional builders over there that occasionally try to reign in that crowd....... If you want some serious reading the entire write up can be found here...
    Post #9 ECJ5
    I have copied and pasted the parts that apply to my project.

    "A shackle is designed to allow the spring to move freely from it's free arch state to it's flat length state. With this in mind, it should make sense that the shackle length should be equal to this amount of travel. To figure this out, measure the flat length of your springs from eye to eye (along the arch) then measure the straight line distance between your spring eyes, with the springs at free arch. Subtract the free arch number from the flat length number and that will tell you how long of a shackle the springs need to allow the spring to move freely. Too short of a shackle will bind the spring prematurely and "short stroke" it (not allow full travel). Too long of a shackle will try to stretch the spring and will prematurely wear the bushings."

    "You now know how long of a shackle you need, now where to put it? I'll once again refer to popular belief, in which there is an ideal shackle angle. This is a fallacy because the shackle angle at ride will vary based on the amount of free arch that a spring has and the amount of weight that the spring is supporting. There simply is no magic angle and simply trying to follow this idea could leave you with a poor ride or a shackle that inverts. Instead I want to once again refer to the mechanics of what your leaf spring and shackle are doing. The ultimate goal of this combination is to allow the spring to move freely from it's free arch state to it's flat length state. To properly locate the shackle end, we will now focus on the flat length of the spring. I use a simple formula to determine where to place my shackle hanger. I've posted this before several times in various threads. Take the flat length of your spring (eye to eye), subtract your shackle length (eye to eye) and then add 1/2." Why a 1/2?" Well, 1/2" accounts for bushing deflection under load. It has yet to provide me with any problems and if you are decent with maintenance, you should discover a blown-out bushing before it is truly problematic. The value from the equation above represents the distance from your fixed spring hanger that your shackle hanger should be. This combination will allow your spring to move freely as it cycles."

    Using this information I set out to properly mount my spring hangers.
    To determine the minimum shackle length I measured the actual spring length along the arc and came up with 45-1/2". Measuring the resting length came up with 42-1/8". This results in a 3-3/8" center to center minimum shackle length.
    For the shackle hanger distance to the fixed eye dimension I used the actual length (45-1/2") subtract the shackle length (3-3/8") = 42-1/8" adding the 1/2" for bushing deflection brings us to 42-5/8"
    I dropped my plumb bobs and tacked my shackle hangers on. The write up quoted above says that the shackle angle doesn't matter as long as the suspension mounting points are correct. This length of shackle and hanger mounting distance allows the spring to go from full droop to flat without ever binding.
    I was curious as to the shackle angle; it is 65 degrees.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    This is as high as I a willing to go with my floor jack and a 4" block of wood on it. Once the rear shackle hangers are moved I will roll the jeep out and use a fork lift.
    In the picture below, with the LR corner at the height shown, the RF spring is not yet flat. The LF spring still has several inches of downward travel before it would splay the leaves and lift the tire.

    [​IMG]

    Using the distances figured above I am now going to move the rear shackle hangers forward.
     
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  17. Feb 25, 2019
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

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    Wow that was quite the calculation.......and taking nothing away from those guys on that board that seemed to be discussing Yoto springs that are very long anyway... and need to adjust the shackle length or add sliders just to get full droop when using that system.......but, just the same long shackles in itself add more ill-handling characteristics than perhaps the droop is really worth in the real world if your sharing the vehicle use between street & trail..............

    Having said that if your not weighing the 4 corners and having custom springs built to support that weight at ride height.......the conversation somewhat becomes mute!

    In the spring world.......90-65 = 25 degrees off of 90 degrees...

    upload_2019-2-25_10-17-9.png
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
  18. Feb 26, 2019
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    There are many threads over on pirate that discuss using this same method for hanging all types of leaf springs. Among all of the garbage banter and middle finger emoticons they use this method for Toyota springs, YJ springs, chevy 63's, alcan's, deavers and even Old Man Emu YJ springs on a Suzuki Samurai. No matter the spring length, width, offset ect...... the goal of this is to keep the shackle from binding the spring thought the range of travel. Full hang to full flat. My shackles are short, 3-3/8" center to center length. The theory is that if your mounting points are in the correct place, long and unstable shackles are not necessary to allow full range of motion. Of course longer shackles would allow for more downward travel, but eventually there is no real weight on the tire to give any traction or forward drive.
     
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  19. Feb 26, 2019
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    After moving the rear shackle hangers last night I threw my wood block back on the jack to see if I had any suspension binds. It didn't take long to find the first one..... Sawzall time...... :sneak:
    Believe it or not I actually planned on the old rancho bump stop contacting my U bolt flip bracket. It looks like the point of contact/ rubber compression will stop the suspension travel about 1" before the tire would hit the fender. This is also really close to the point that the front spring will be flat.
    The opposing rear spring (where the jack is) should be flat as well but jacking under the spring pad does not create as much leverage as would be created when the tire itself is on top of an obstacle. Lifting the tire with a forklift will be better, but it's way too stormy out for that right now......:waiting:

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
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  20. Feb 26, 2019
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Liberty Lake, WA
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