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The "You're an Idiot" restoration

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by benmack1, Dec 3, 2010.

  1. Dec 26, 2010
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    So it ran! That was a milestone for me. So I checked the alternator and it wasn't putting out anything. Not too surprising, it was actually frozen up at first. Once I freed it, the thing spins fine but no juice coming from it. I pulled it off.

    Here is a good pic of the orginal alt hook-up. I have a sneaky suspicion that may well be the original alternator from 1972. The regulator is a motorola. I see replacements now look different so I think the reg is original as well.

    [​IMG]

    I had a hell of a time getting the bottom bolt off. I had to take the entire bracket off the engine. I think that was actually easier anyway.

    Here is the bracket from the left side of the motor.

    [​IMG]

    Alt off

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So now I need to make a decision as I mentioned a couple days ago. Do I replace the alt and reg with OEM, or do I upgrade to the delco-remy with internal regulator. That is the way I am leaning right now. I still need some good instructions on wiring it up. I have a pretty good idea, but I'd love to see a picture tutorial on this model rig so I am sure.
     
  2. Dec 27, 2010
    mainejeep

    mainejeep Member

    kenduskeag maine
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2010
    Messages:
    226
    its all prefrence about the alt but if it were me id upgrade to the internal. someone else will probably chime in here ...and also when u replace that rear pan look at these guys c2cfabrication.com. they have really good replacement front and rear pans. and for great prices i got my front floor pans for 40 bucks a piece, compared to over 100 at some places.
     
  3. Dec 27, 2010
    CO64CJ5

    CO64CJ5 Member

    Littleton, CO
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2007
    Messages:
    125
    I don't have a pictorial, but it's fairly simple. First, someone will probably suggest to just put a 1-wire Delco alternator in there and be done with it. Try to resist the temptation to do this. The 2 additional wires buy you some significant improvements.

    Second, consider "3-wire" to be a misnomer. You should also have a dedicated ground wire so the alternator does not have to ground through that rusty mounting bracket. There should be a threaded boss in the alternator's case which will accommodate a ground wire. You'll want at least a 10-gauge, or even an 8-gauge wire connecting this to a good grounding point.

    On the Motorola alternator, you have a heavy wire connected to a post which might be labeled "Bat", running to the battery terminal on the starter solenoid. This wire will connect to the heavy "Bat" terminal on the Delco alternator. This is the alternator's output connection.

    There should also be a terminal on the Motorola alternator, possibly labeled "Reg", which has two wires connected -- one goes to the regulator, the other goes to the charge indicator lamp on the dash (probably in the speedometer cluster). The wire to the regulator is no longer needed, but the one to the charge indicator lamp should be connected to terminal "1" on the Delco alternator.

    The "1" terminal serves two purposes. It provides a visual indicator (the "idiot light") if the alternator is not working, but more importantly, it provides current to the alternator's field windings to enable it to start generating power at lower RPM's. Without this, you would have to rev the engine to get the alternator "started".

    Finally, you will need a wire connecting terminal "2" on the Delco alternator to the battery. This is the "sense" terminal which feeds battery voltage back to the internal regulator. The regulator adjusts the alternator's output to maintain the proper voltage on this terminal. The simplest connection is to just run a short wire from this terminal to the "Bat" post on the alternator, but especially if you run heavy loads you might get better performance by running a wire from this terminal to a point further "downstream", such as the battery terminal on the starter solenoid. This will compensate for voltage drop in the alternator's output wire.

    You can get a pigtail connector for the "1" and "2" terminals which includes a short wire with terminal to be connected to the "Bat" terminal.
     
  4. Dec 28, 2010
    Mr. Gangrene Jeans

    Mr. Gangrene Jeans I See Voices&Hear Visions

    Kansas City
    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2009
    Messages:
    282
    Having your Dad and your lad helping with your JEEP, you sir are a lucky man!
     
  5. Dec 29, 2010
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Can anyone tell me if this alternator lower bracket separates into 2 pieces? I need to modify it for a new (to this jeep anyway) delco-remy alternator. I don't have a picture yet of the alternator (coming soon), but I believe it is a 12si. I pulled it off a 1984 Olds Cutlass Supreme. The lower mount is a whole bunch wider than the OEM alt was. I was thinking, if the original bracket separates into 2 pieces (looks like it should), I could re-drill it and widen the mount. I tapped on it a couple times and it didn't move and I didn't get any more aggressive with it yet. Anyone made a mount for a 10si or 12si alt for a 72 with a 232ci motor? Any ideas (with pictures!) appreciated.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Dec 30, 2010
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    First, let me thank CO64CJ5 for a great instruction on how to hook up the new alternator. That was what I needed. I have been doing more reading than anyone ever should regarding this alt swap. Anyway that's the fun of this thing, to learn!

    As promised, here are some pics of my new (used) alternator. I pulled it off an 84 Cutlas Supreme. I think it is a 12si, but it must be a knock-off as I don't see delco-remy stamped on it anywhere. Hopefully it is good. It's clearly a reman alt (it has stickers saying that) and I don't think an original from 84 would look this shiny. It had what looked like a new belt on it and I think this thing must have been put on that car just before it was sent to the junkyard. It wasn't wrecked so who knows. Hopefully it works.


    Here's the pics.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]

    I'm hoping to get to fabbing up a bracket tomorrow if time allows and we'll go from there.
     
  7. Jan 30, 2011
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Well, it's been a month or so, but I've got the alternator replaced with a 3 wire 12si set up. I had gone back and forth on drivers side mount like the original motorola or switching over to passenger side mount in preparation for a power steering addition.

    I have everything (almost) I need for either option. I got lucky and pulled a timing cover, water pump , double harmonic balancer pulley, double fan/water pump pulley and alt bracket off a 79 CJ7 with a 258. I think that will give me everything I need for a passenger side set up and then I could put the PS on the drivers side like most of the post 75/76 CJs.

    Here is the timing cover etc from the CJ7. I won't probably use it but I took a pic so thought I'd post it for reference in case anyone needs to see the differences.

    [​IMG]

    But, just before I set that plan in motion, I found a 72 AMC Gremlin that had the OEM bracketry to place the PS on the passenger side which was the case for 72-74 (not sure about 75). At least that was what I thought I got from the guy!

    This has been a real learning experience. That's actually the fun part for me. What I pulled from that gremlin was an idler bracket for an AC set up.

    [​IMG]

    Apparently the AC in 72 for the 258/232 motors was on the drivers side and the belt ran a big loop from the harmonic balancer to the AC then across to the passenger side and over an idler back to the harmonic ballancer. So when I got home and realized this, I had a %^$*#@ moment. But all was not lost. The only difference between this bracket set up and what is needed for PS is the bracket you see in the pictures with the idler pulley mounted to it. That is replaced with a plate that the pump mounts to and I can easily fab that part. I got the OEM brackets I really needed that mount to the block for the top of the PS pump and the timing cover for the lower adjustment. I think I should be good to go. More pics below. I'll get back tot the alternator shortly.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It needs to be cleaned up, but the brackets are good and bottom line is alternator will go on the drivers side in the OEM location but upgraded to an internally regulated 12si.
     
  8. Jan 30, 2011
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Now, back to the alternator installation.

    To install the 3 wire internally regulated delco/remy alternator I needed to figure out the wires that go on the two small terminals (1 and 2). Terminal 1 goes to the alt light on the dash which is the grey wire shown in this picture. This energizes the alternator initially to create a field. It's hard to see colors on these old wires, but its the wire on the small connector that goes both to the external motorola regulator and back into the wiring harness.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I cut this octopus lead out of the the system and tossed it. You can see the wire that is cut is the alt idiot light lead that I needed for terminal 1 on the new alternator.

    [​IMG]

    The second wire I needed to find is one to sense the voltage so the regulator knows what to do. Some just jump to the big BATT terminal on the alternator, but as I understand it, the further away you can get the better signal will be to sense the real voltage drop and it will work better. So, the yellow wire that goes from the main harness to the motorola voltage regulator and back to the 'I' terminal on the starting solenoid is a good wire to use. Note I describe later moving from the I terminal to the big terminal on the solenoid but for now here is the 2nd wire. This one will go on terminal '2' on the new alternator.

    [​IMG]

    Here is the OEM set-up on the other end of the yellow wire. I'll move that later and add a fusable link as well.

    [​IMG]

    The 3rd wire is the 10ga wire for the BATT terminal and that is obvious of course.

    Next was mounting the new alternator. The old motorola is much smaller. So I had to re-work the OEM lower bracket. I had to separate the two pieces, grind off an ear that helps hold them together and the key was to cut the pieces enough that the new lower mount allowed the 12si to rotate back sufficiently far to get the belt on and have adjustment. Here is a pic of the lower mount from the underside. I also had to trim the width of the 12si lower mounting casting in order to make the bracket work. The bracket is mounted into the original holes in the block. The 2nd piece of the bracket was just slide open and re-drilled to fit. Should be a good solid mount.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I took the fan assembly off, so I could see what I was doing. I then was able to move the top slide adjustment slightly. I also did a little widening of the slide groove with my dremel tool to make everything move easier. Not much, just minor shaving. Meanwhile, when I pulled the lower radiator hose off the water pump it dripped antifreeze all over my work area - grrrr. It wasn't much but I hoped it hadn't gotten into the alternator. You can see the green drips everywhere.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Meanwhile, Benny was about doing some parts cleaning:)

    [​IMG]

    Dad working over the brackets. He's my fab man, no fear and sees thing completed while I sit around worrying about cutting into a 38 year old piece of crap. I'm a tightwad and keep wondering if I screw this up, what's it going to cost me :mad: When I get into real repairs, I'm going to have to adjust my attitude.

    [​IMG]

    Belt, hoses and fan back on. We were able to use the original belt so I think a pretty good mount!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Just need to wire it up at this point and see if the $13 alternator from a junkyard actually works. I hope it does!
     
  9. Jan 30, 2011
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Now, to wire it up and see if it charges!

    I soldered in a radioshack diode (P/N 276-1143) as has been suggested by others into the alt light line. This is apparently so the alt doesn't backfeed through the instrument panel and power up the coil when the switch is killed and thus not allow the motor to shut off. I don't know if this was really needed but I did it anyway.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Zip ties for now keeping excess wire out of the way. I plan to put a new harness on the rig after I take the body off and re-do everything. Looks like hell now, but we'll make it pretty later.

    Here is the original starter solenoid configuration.

    [​IMG]

    I moved the yellow 'I' terminal wire to the main terminal and put a fusible link in the line.

    I also, put a 14 ga fusible link into the main 10 ga batt terminal lead to the the starter solenoid. Here is that new mess I ended with. It's hard to see, but the batt line and #2 line are on the big terminal of the solenoid (same side as the positive battery lead). Both lines connected through fusible links.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I hit the key and it started. that was a minor miracle in itself after I've been hacking into wires. And as an added bonus, the alternator was putting out 14.67 volts measured across the battery terminals. The alt idiot light on the dash is not illuminated so it looks like all is well - upgrade complete. I just want to put a ground line from the alternator to the frame so I don't have to rely on the mounts as the ground.

    All in all, not bad for a junkyard alternator recycle. That's more than anyone ever wanted to see on an alterator upgrade, but you guys said you like pics so I aim to oblige!
     
  10. Jan 30, 2011
    del

    del New Member

    yakima, wa
    Joined:
    May 7, 2010
    Messages:
    24
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Hope this helps. Looking good.

    del
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2011
  11. Feb 13, 2011
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    I figured there isn't much more I can do to tinker with little things. I am convinced it runs and shifts with no obvious major issues. So now it's time to tear it down and at least try to make a nice jeep out of it.

    Disassembly starts Feb 12, 2011. Hopefully it goes back together someday!!

    Not really having a clue what I'm doing, I just started taking off the drivers side front fender.

    A look from a few feet back.

    [​IMG]

    The fender removed, still has the old regulator hanging on there. I forgot about the clearance light on the fender, almost ripped the damn wire off thinking I had it loose!

    [​IMG]

    Bottom side, rear looking up. The inside would be at the top of this photo and the outside with the black fender flare is at the bottom in the picture. This is all just what I would call course surface rust. The steel is very solid. I don't think this thing will need any 'repairs' other than the dent in the front and of course clean up, primer and paint. I hope anyway. I'm all ears if others see something I am not appreciating.

    [​IMG]

    Here is a close-up of the fire-wall where the fender bolts on. One major malfunction on my part. I twisted off a bolt. Totally a screw up. I'm all ears on what to do to remove that thing! It's in a tapped hole.

    [​IMG]

    here is the passenger side fender. It looks about the same.

    [​IMG]

    ...except for this one spot in the corner. Not sure if I have an issue there or not. It's a crappy picture, there is a bolt hole there, but in the corner to the lower left of that bolt hole looks suspicious.

    [​IMG]

    passenger side fire-wall. Didn't break any bolts off this time.

    [​IMG]

    Passenger side frame with fender off. Yucky but hopefully solid.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Feb 13, 2011
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    more front end disassembly pics. You guys said you like pics so I aim to oblige.


    Passenger side with hood and fenders off.
    [​IMG]

    Drivers side
    [​IMG]

    Front end. Need to jerk the radiator off next I guess.
    [​IMG]

    I also bought this thing yesterday. I popped into the local auto store last weekend to pick up a couple small things. They had a new hoist in the front of the store. This store has only been open a week and nobody could figure out the price, but the guy said he had one for sale himself if I was interested. He said it was just like the one in the store, I thought it would be a total leaky piece of crap, but it looked pretty good when I arrived. So I bought it at a fraction of the cost of a new one. I suspect the store wouldn't be too happy with his sales tactics :rofl: but a hell of a nice guy to talk to when I met him to look at the hoist.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Feb 13, 2011
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    I had some time Sunday morning to tear the remainder of the front clip off. It's amazing how much damage and idiot with a few tools can do in a couple hours.

    Radiator out, headlights out and ready to remove the grill.
    [​IMG]

    A look at the radiator. I'm not sure what I'll do with this. Maybe take it to a radiator shop and have it pressure tested and painted up. Maybe just put a new one in to avoid problems shortly after the resto???

    [​IMG]
    backside
    [​IMG]

    This is boring, but I suspect I'll need this veiw later to remember how the wiring went. This is behind the drivers headlight - a look at the harness and grounding.

    [​IMG]

    Same thing, passenger side.

    [​IMG]

    Drivers side turn light, cover off.

    [​IMG]

    turn light removed.

    [​IMG]

    Grill out
    [​IMG]
    backside
    [​IMG]

    looks pretty good I guess. The only spot that worries me is the bottom passenger side corner. I'm not sure what is going on here, something odd but seems solid on the underside. We'll see when I get it cleaned up and blasted.
    [​IMG]

    Underside of the grill bolt
    [​IMG]

    topside with the bushing still in place.
    [​IMG]

    Front cross member, vacumed off. Looks good I think.
    [​IMG]

    View from a few feet back.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Feb 13, 2011
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Just a few more pics around the front end with the clip off so I can remember where things go later on. Maybe it will also help someone else that's a novice like me as well.

    Firewall wiring from the drivers side.
    [​IMG]

    Starter area. A ton of crap to clean up on this motor.
    [​IMG]

    More of the firewall. I think this is all original configuration.
    [​IMG]

    Engine harness connectors. Passenger side view.
    [​IMG]

    Wiring block on drivers side firewall.
    [​IMG]

    Underside of dimmer switch on floorboard.
    [​IMG]

    Clutch linkage
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Master cylinder and brakelight connection.
    [​IMG]

    Manual steering box linkage and pitman arm. I hope to do away with this for PS later.
    [​IMG]

    Top end of the steering
    [​IMG]

    Drivers side view of steering rod etc
    [​IMG]

    Exhaust to manifold area.
    [​IMG]

    Can you guys tell I am paranoid I won't be able to remember how the hell all this stuff went when I get ready to reassemble?R)
     
  15. Feb 13, 2011
    Thompology

    Thompology Member

    Sacramento
    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Messages:
    222
    If that is all the pictures you have taken I would say you aren't paranoid at all, Currently I am at 863 pictures during my build and I use them for reference quite often!

    Keep at it! Love the progress.
     
  16. Feb 19, 2011
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    The next step was to start to free up the tub. Alot of little stuff. I am hoping to take most of the wiring with the tub and only disconnect what I have to. The first thing was the parking brake.

    I loosened up the brake assembly bolts and got it loose. However I couldn't get the cable to come off the assembly. I took the clip off and got the actual cable out of the slot and then removed the lower clip that holds the cable sheath onto the bracket and the cable wouldn't budge. Trying to work under the dash isn't for me - I weigh 265 on a good day. Anyway this is what I had. I was able to get the release cable off the assembly without much problem. You can see that hanging here with the white slotted disk in the picture.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I was able to get the cable off later and it was just corrosion as I figured but not knowing what was supposed to disconnect from what i didn't want to get too aggressive. I will get a new cable but no sense is destroying things.

    So I looked at a parts manual to see how this thing was supposed to be put together and then decided maybe it would be better from the underside. This first pic shows one nut, there was a double nut there and I had already backed one off.

    [​IMG]

    A little wider view. I pulled the holding clip in front of the spring and once I had the nuts off, this thing pulled right out no problem.
    [​IMG]

    The routing of the cable above the frame and under the tub. The cable next to it I think is the speedometer linkage. That goes into the transfer case I think.
    [​IMG]

    Up toward the entry to the brake pedal behind the rocker panel area. under the dimmer switch and the floor board. That's actually the dimmer switch hanging to the upper left of the picture. I have it pulled out from the bottom hanging just in front of the firewall and you can see it through the hole. Obviously I'm posting this so I can remember how the hell this goes.
    [​IMG]

    Crappy pic here but you can see the speedo cable hanging on the drivers side under the rocker. I disconnected that at the transfer case and will take that with the dash and tub when I pull it.
    [​IMG]

    E-brake assembly out and on the shop floor. I put the clips all back together. This is how it should be when assembled. As I said above, a little WD-40 and some chanel locks with the pedal in the vice and the cable came away from the brake assembly no problem. Just corrosion again.
    [​IMG]

    The other end of the cable now removed from the jeep.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Feb 19, 2011
    benmack1

    benmack1 Member

    North Carolina
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    166
    Continuing on to free up the tub.

    Another look at the wire routing around the master cylinder.
    [​IMG]
    I need to get the brake lines off tomorrow. I'm worried I am going to forget something and hear the crunch when I start lifting the tub!
    [​IMG]

    Bottom side of the master cylinder
    [​IMG]

    I don't know what the hell this thing is, but it looks important so i took a picture of how it was wired. This is just behind the carb. Please feel free to chime in and tell me what it is. Maybe it's my cruise control eh?:rofl:
    [​IMG]

    A view looking down next to the master cylinder to see how the speedo cable etc are routed.
    [​IMG]

    I now pulled the steering column. I had no idea where to start so I just started taking off bolts. I removed this plate/braket first.
    [​IMG]

    I then took the bolt out of the top end of the u-joint knuckle. I took the bolt all the way out - good I did, I see when i got it out that the spline had a groove where the bolt holds it in.

    I then took the bolts loose on the dash that hold the steering column (well bolts and screws that hold the dash to the column). I tapped the bottom end of the column (it had a big washer on it) with a brass draft and it was moving so I kept tapping until it separated from the lower steering rod. I ended up with this on my shop floor.

    [​IMG]

    and now my dash looks like this.
    [​IMG]

    and my steering is reduced to this. Might turn kind of hard now.
    [​IMG]

    I then got on to the clutch linkage. The plan I guess is to leave the pedals on the tub when I pull it. Someone feel free to tell me if I am wrong, I'm winging it here.
    [​IMG]

    Linkage disconnected.
    [​IMG]

    Next was to pull the windshield. Good grief, I make things difficult. The brackets came loose without any issues but the damn wiring for the wiper motor was hanging me up. Again my pear like physique prevented me from looking much under the dash so i thought I'd see if I could pull the wires from the wiper motor on the windshield. I removed the bolt and 2 of the screws and one of the screws was corroded on. I striped it and I don't know what I'll do now. Hopefully I can get some small vice grips and get it out. What a fiasco. I get myself into chit so fast sometimes - stupid screw!

    So i then got a mirror and could see the wires went to the wiper switch (duh, I guess), so I pulled the switch and removed the wires. here is the wiring so I can put them back someday.
    [​IMG]

    Got the window off. The frame looks pretty good I think.

    [​IMG]

    Passenger side bottom
    [​IMG]

    Drivers side bottom
    [​IMG]

    Center bottom
    [​IMG]

    Pretty neat hinges too the way they slip out. However, who the hell could ever take the damn window off anyway with those stupid wires for the wiper motor???

    Here's that damn screw!
    [​IMG]

    Here is the tub window seal. Looks good. I think someone who knew what the heck they were doing could make a good jeep out of this thing, it's all solid at least so far.

    Drivers side.

    [​IMG]

    Passenger side

    [​IMG]

    So now it looks like this.

    [​IMG]

    I also got the covers off the shifters. twisted another bolt off, but should be easy to get this one from the bottom with some vice grips once the tub is off.

    tranfer case cover off
    [​IMG]

    transmission off too
    [​IMG]

    the covers
    [​IMG]

    bottomside of the covers.
    [​IMG]

    the last job for today was a cub scout blue and gold banquet. My boy got his bear badge tonight. That is us in the center in the pic below. We also had to bake a cake today for a competition at the banquet. That went about as well as the stupid wiper motor cover screw.R)
    Pretty good day all in all.
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Feb 20, 2011
    Posimoto

    Posimoto Hopeless JEEP Addict

    Minden, Nevada
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2003
    Messages:
    4,538
    You'll have beter luck ditching the WD40 and getting some PB Blaster or other penetrating type oil. WD is a water dispersant (WD) not a lubricant. A common mis-conception. You are on the right track though. You will find that most of the Jeep only goes together one way, the challenge is putting it back together in the right order. Worst case, you have to take some things back apart to get it right. But you've got a long way to go before you are at that point. Great project, don't get discouraged. When you put it back together it will all be clean too. A definite plus.
     
  19. Feb 21, 2011
    canuk

    canuk Member

    Chandler AZ
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Messages:
    120
    PB Blaster is your friend,
     
  20. Feb 26, 2011
    waynaferd

    waynaferd Hey, ya'll watch this!!

    That's Bangor,...
    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    224
    ATF and some acetone, about 50/50...that is how you loosen rusted sh!t!!!
     
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