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Old Red Maintenance Thread

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by Fireball, Jul 4, 2020.

  1. Jan 15, 2022
    vtxtasy

    vtxtasy oldbee

    Tucson, AZ
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2006
    Messages:
    26
    They look taller in the pictures. Good price on those wheels. They are getting hard to find.
     
    Fireball likes this.
  2. Jan 18, 2022
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    4,114
    I know I'm supposed to be working on the transmission in the '71 but I've been accumulating parts for additional upgrades to the '69.

    Not sure when I'll get to any of it, but here's what's in planning:

    A factory 5-bladed fan, a larger diameter crank pulley so it charges better at idle (I have my idle set around 400 RPM), and some Warn Lock-o-matic hubs:
    [​IMG]

    Unfortunately one of the hubs is missing the rubbing blocks on the back so it can't auto engage and one of the drag nuts is cracked. I've ordered a second complete set of Lock-o-matics and should be able to make a working set from all the parts.

    Perhaps more fun is a Warn 8274 winch. I got this from a friend 25 years ago and it's been sitting around ever since:
    [​IMG]

    It's a Jeep branded unit that seems to be from the early 70s based on the serial number:
    [​IMG]

    The ratchet pawl is off and the snap-ring on the bake is missing. I'm not a fan of the "billet" engagement knob:
    [​IMG]

    The missing snap ring and pawl parts:
    [​IMG]

    The original solenoid box is in good shape externally:
    [​IMG]

    The contoller:
    [​IMG]

    The gears look good, so it should be a pretty easy rebuild:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Motor data plate:
    [​IMG]
     
    melvinm, fhoehle, Ol Fogie and 8 others like this.
  3. Jan 23, 2022
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    4,114
    The new set of Lock-O-Matics showed up Yesterday:
    [​IMG]

    The drag nuts aren't pictured but are there. These seem to be in better shape than my other pair, so I'm fixing up these and will use the other pair for parts.

    For reference, I'm leaving one hub together while I fixed the other. I started disassembly by pounding over the ridge where Warn staked the twist nob screw. I just use Loc-Tite when I put them back together:
    [​IMG]

    The rest of the disassembly is pretty straight forward. After a couple hours with the parts cleaner and some Scotch-Brite, this is what you get:
    [​IMG]

    I do have a replacement for the broken outer twist knob seal.

    Painted the steel hub ring:
    [​IMG]

    Cleaned up, it looks a little better than the other one. It's not perfect so it will look right at home on this Jeep:
    [​IMG]

    Tomorrow, I should get this one assembled and get the other one cleaned up/painted.
     
    fhoehle, timsresort, 47v6 and 6 others like this.
  4. Jan 23, 2022
    ANTHONY DRANE

    ANTHONY DRANE New Member

    Friendly, WV
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2020
    Messages:
    43
    Thanks for sending the build link. I like the wheels. I'm pretty sure I can get custom back space on this wheel when ordering. I'll have to sell off my 92 Cummins to finance this project. I'm thinking about it too.
     
    Fireball likes this.
  5. Jan 24, 2022
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    4,114
    Didn't get a ton of time tonight but did get the first hub back together and the other one cleaned.

    Here's the special drag nuts that go on the spindles in place of the standard spindle lock nut:
    [​IMG]

    This outer surface is where the friction pads on the roller cage run. Someone had taken one of the nuts off with channel locks so I needed to file and sand the gouges smooth:
    [​IMG]

    I'll see if I can explane how they work. Here is one without grease and only two of the friction pads on the roller cage so you can see the rest of the rollers:
    [​IMG]
    • The inner piece that's splined on the axle has ramps on it's outer surface.
    • There is a cage for the rollers that is spring loaded to keep the rollers at the bottom of the ramps normally. This works in either direction.
    • There are friction pads on the roller cage that drag on the special spindle nut. This causes the cage to have some resistance to rotation.
    • The outer housing that drives the wheel has a smooth round inner surface.
    • When you have the transfer case in 2wd, the axle shaft does not turn and the spring keeps the roller cage centered. In this position, the rollers are not tight to the outer housing and the outer hosing spins freely.
    • When you put the transfer case in 4wd, the axle turns the ramped inner piece. Since the roller cage has some fricction against the stationary spindle it doesn't want to turn. Since the cage is trying to stay stationary, it forces the rollers up the ramps where they wedge into the outer housing and drive the wheel.
    • If the wheel over speeds the axle, it will release the rollers and turn freely.
    • If you change direction, there will be some rotation of the axle before the hub locks up in the other direction. The this is because the rollers need to run down the ramps and up the other side to lock up in the opposite direction.
    • There is a manual override to fully lock the hub like a normal Warn hub.
    • Any time the hub is locked up automatically or manually, the roller cage needs to turn with the wheel dragging the friction pads around the drag nut. That means these hubs probably aren't the greatest for long distance or high speed driving in 4wd. You can see signs of wear on the pads in the hubs I have, but it's not terrible.
    Overall, It's a pretty neat design. It's basically an bi-directional overrunning clutch. I'm really curious to try them out.

    I've been using an extra 5.38 D44 pinion gear as a jig for assembling things:
    [​IMG]

    Second hub all cleaned up. I still need to Scotch-Brite the outer pieces and paint the iron housing before I can assemble it:
    [​IMG]
     
    fhoehle, ITLKSEZ, Ol Fogie and 2 others like this.
  6. Jan 24, 2022
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    3,715
    I don't remember where I saw it, but someone is making those drag nuts new. They actually came in two different diameters. They are interchangeable with the corresponding lock rings.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    givemethewillys and Fireball like this.
  7. Jan 24, 2022
    Ol Fogie

    Ol Fogie 74 cj5 304, 1943 mb 2020 Sponsor

    Jasper Georgia
    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2019
    Messages:
    1,100
    Very good write up. My opinion of the lock-o-matic hubs is they are very dependable when not abused. My 74 came new with them, never have had the slightest problem with them. This is the third jeep I have owned with them too, without ever any problems. The thing is keep them cleaned out and serviced every year or so especially if submerged in water. Also stay away form them with a pressure washer.
    I absolutely like mine for convenience when you need 4 wheel drive only for a moment or so. I only lock them so to have compression breaking when needed like on snow/ice or descending steep hills.
    I know that you probably noticed the little locking set screw in the drag nut. Those are easily striped in the allen socket, so if you can find extras get em for when servicing the wheel bearings. For some reason they are hard to loosen when been on for a while.
    I have a tool (photo) for removing the drag nuts. Had it for years from back in the 70's when I worked at the Jeep dealer. Who ever it is that has the drag nuts for sale may have them, makes removal much easier without damaging the nuts with a punch.
    IMG_2693.JPG
     
    Buildflycrash likes this.
  8. Jan 24, 2022
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    4,114
    Thanks for the picture. I plan on making some sort of spanner like than for tightening/loosening the nuts.
     
    Ol Fogie likes this.
  9. Jan 25, 2022
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    4,114
    It looks like I have 3 of one kind and one of the other:
    [​IMG]

    The smaller one has a tighter radius on the edge than the others:
    [​IMG]

    Here's the one that's cracked:
    [​IMG]

    I'll be using the two the measured out at 2.120. They match and are in good shape (after filing down the gouges from a previous Channel-Lock episode).

    There seem to be some running changes on these hubs. Neither of the two pairs I have matched within the pair. It does appear I have a matching set across the pairs though.

    One of them has a snap ring to hold the drag pads in place and a center thrust plate with fingers (I didn't get a picture of the trust plates):
    [​IMG]

    Two of them have a spring holding the drag pads in place. These have a thrust plate with holes and not fingers:
    [​IMG]

    This odd one has no provisions for the drag pads. It seems there must have been plastic ring that fit between the drag nut and the cage?:
    [​IMG]

    I haven't found pictures online to see what the missing parts look like so I'm not sure how to make this hub work. The closest thing I could find was from this thread: A Brief History Of Early Warn Hubs For Jeeps. This 1956 materials spec sheet shows something like that but doesn't call it out:
    [​IMG]

    Every other image of Lock-O-Matic hubs I can find shows the drag shoes like my other hubs. This hub is interesting as a very early lockmatic? Maybe? I don't know.

    Here you can see where the drag shoes in one of my hubs had gotten hot in the past. The plastic is smeared over:
    [​IMG]

    Both hi\ubs cleaned up and ready to go. Waiting for gaskets and I'll pop them on the Jeep:
    [​IMG]
     
    Danefraz, fhoehle, Rubicloak and 5 others like this.
  10. Jan 31, 2022
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    4,114
    Here's a big project. Replaced the seal for the transfer case shifter.

    Before:
    [​IMG]

    After. With great skill I even manged to keep the dirt on the floor intact:
    [​IMG]

    We also went for 30 mile drive today with quite a few miles on the highway. With the 6 degree caster shims, a rebuilt bell crank, and the Ross box rebuild it drives great down the highway at 60mph. When I got it 20mph was a white knuckle struggle to stay out of the ditch. Such a big improvement.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2022
    melvinm, Danefraz, fhoehle and 10 others like this.
  11. Mar 11, 2022
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    4,114
    Switched gears for a night. The next project after the transmission swap in the '71 is getting the 8274 winch on the '69. Given supply chain issues, I wanted to get it apart and figure out what parts I need and get them ordered.

    The brake was completely seized up. I ended up using my biggest dead-blow hammer, the press and a puller in alternating order to get it all apart.

    Getting the last piece off the shaft. This is supposed to move freely!:
    [​IMG]
    All the bits and pieces. Definitely a bit of a rust problem:
    [​IMG]

    Luckily with some cleaning and polishing, all the parts that are supposed to move are moving freely. Looks like I can get by with the basic brake rebuild kit. Parts ordered.

    I really don't want to cut the bumper for the fairlead, but I hate how much the winch blocks the grill when mounting the winch on top:
    [​IMG]

    I may also see how things fit/look with the fairlead just below the bumper.
     
    blalp!, duffer, 47v6 and 3 others like this.
  12. Mar 11, 2022
    Rubicloak

    Rubicloak Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Nevada
    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2018
    Messages:
    272
    ^^^ Roy, since you mentioned above of possibly dropping it down..... Used some artistic liberty on my museum build. Figured guys were doing this back in the day so it would have been a period correct look/improvement for my Belleview 6000 or my NOS 5687.
    Dropped the winch down so that the fair lead comes through the bumper. My fellow Navy and Vietnam Vet Jim fabricated this up for me.

    He used my original Warn mounting plate as a template and gave it some extra length so that it could be welded to the bumper for additional strength. He then turned the spacers on his lathe to span between the bumper and the plate for the pass through bolts, also for extra strength. I then had him add two recovery points to the front.

    All in all I think it is a nice upgrade/improvement and it stays loyal to the look and functionality of the time period.

    Not to mention it is a thing of beauty.

    20201219_200719resize.jpg

    138057012_3154365841456627_373792467199781362_n.jpg

    138117492_3154365894789955_6358180090635812403_n.jpg

    138143692_3154365868123291_762426004143623069_n.jpg

    138237642_3154366201456591_4896284979830290400_n.jpg

    137670676_3154366041456607_8290369070201203423_n.jpg

    138073994_3154366251456586_4648099299674595541_n.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2022
    Danefraz, Twin2, blalp! and 10 others like this.
  13. Mar 11, 2022
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    4,114
    Nice install. I really like that.
     
    Rubicloak likes this.
  14. Mar 11, 2022
    Jw60

    Jw60 WRPD855 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    2,943
    Put it in the bumper like a good dealership would have.
     
    Fireball likes this.
  15. Mar 11, 2022
    Lockman

    Lockman OK.....Now I Get It . 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    White City, NY 14617
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
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    2,346
    Talk about lay'n 'Dimes' :flag:
     
    Twin2 and Buildflycrash like this.
  16. Mar 11, 2022
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    3,715
    I'm another that likes the fairlead through the bumper. Maybe just old school but I like the looks. If you were closer, I'd loan you my "layout" plate-1/2", with all the holes for both the Belleview and 8274 located. These are all threaded and I made a threaded drill guide that fits the holes. You just clamp the plate in the desired place and drill away.

    I tried to keep the weight to a minimum on the B and eliminated most of the mounting plate with just reinforcement where it was needed. All the holes are sleeved and the rope/cable slot is boxed (that was some fun welding---).
    [​IMG]

    If you decide to swap out the motor, the 9.5XP motor is a VERY worthwhile bolt-in swap. More power (10,000 lb rated) and faster.
     
    Danefraz, fhoehle, Lockman and 7 others like this.
  17. Mar 11, 2022
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
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    4,114

    I like the idea of minimizing the plate. I'm not sure if I'll chop up the original plate or use it as a screw template for a new one. I'll need to straighten out the bumber too. It has a decent wow in it between the frame rails. I'll probably start by chaining it to a tree to see if I can pull it out that way. I really don't want to take the rivets out if I don't have to.
     
    Rubicloak likes this.
  18. Mar 12, 2022
    scott milliner

    scott milliner Master Fabricator

    Seattle Wa.
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    2,285
    Really don't need the spacers. Just make the backing plate small enough so you can access shorter bolts from behind.
    Also keeps people from stealing your winch. They'd have to take the hole bumper off to do it.

    As for the strength? This bumper has held up to a 16,000lbs pull. I know this because my winch almost came to a dead stop on a double line pull one day.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2022
    Ol Fogie, Danefraz, fhoehle and 7 others like this.
  19. Mar 17, 2022
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    4,114
    The new knob for the winch clutch showed up and I got all excited to install it!

    However the 90s-tastic billet knob had corroded itself onto the shaft. When I put some effort into turning the knob, the weld holding the shift for broke. I pulled it apart and used the vice to finally get the knob off. So there's an extra project:
    [​IMG]

    Cleaned the old weld off the fork
    [​IMG]

    Got creative holding it in place to weld it:
    [​IMG]

    With that repaired I could put the more period correct knob on. Much better:
    [​IMG]

    Controller box is a little crusty and will need some cleaning. I haven't tested any of the realays yet:
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Mar 18, 2022
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    4,114
    Pulled the winch motor apart. Other than a little green fuzz on the brushes it looks good inside:
    [​IMG]

    Next is cleaning everything up so I can start reassembling it. I'll deal with the electrical once I get the mechanical stuff back together.
     
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